Musings on Immortality
On my last blog, Dead Souls, my friend Smith left a comment that really got me thinking (nothing new about that!). And perhaps it got me thinking in a direction that neither he nor I might have expected. But anyway....
I found his question both amusing (on the surface) and yet deeply profound. He wrote:
"flesh dies and leaves soul - what does soul leave when it dies?"
Whoa....
And so here are the thoughts that emerged from my brain in response. Feel free to add to them, subtract from them, affirm/disregard them wholesale, or even take off in your own interesting direction. My answer:
The campaign trail?
Good question.... And can soul die? And does soul even exist?
Seriously, I don't know that there is such a thing as "soul" distinct from flesh. And what is flesh but an association of molecules? And the molecules don't disappear when the body decomposes - they merely disassociate and probably form new associations. In this sense, there is no literal death, just a continual reassociation - though there is a metaphorical death of a metaphorical body. But I don't even know if you can call the molecular association a distinct "body," since it is in a state of continual flux and reaction with its environment and never from one minute to the next consists completely of the same exact set of molecules. I tend to think of "soul" as a metaphor for energy. And energy continues to exist in (and even make up the "substance" of) each and every individual molecule/atom whether they are associated or disassociated. Some might wonder how this explains consciousness. Though it is imperfect, I could use the analogy of baking soda and vinegar. Apart they are rather tame and "lifeless." But combine them, and you'll witness a lively (and one might say violent or even creative) chemical reaction. I think consciousness is a just another sort of reaction - a by-product of a certain association of molecules. Does it make us any more important than the rocks? Maybe not.... Maybe it just IS and we (however we define "we") just ARE. And maybe there is no such thing as un-ISness (unbeing, or "death"). Maybe there is only Be-ing, though we are not quite accustomed to recognizing all of it as such.
What hath Smith wrought?... Thanks for inspiring a bit of brain churning this morning. You're good at that.
I found his question both amusing (on the surface) and yet deeply profound. He wrote:
"flesh dies and leaves soul - what does soul leave when it dies?"
Whoa....
And so here are the thoughts that emerged from my brain in response. Feel free to add to them, subtract from them, affirm/disregard them wholesale, or even take off in your own interesting direction. My answer:
The campaign trail?
Good question.... And can soul die? And does soul even exist?
Seriously, I don't know that there is such a thing as "soul" distinct from flesh. And what is flesh but an association of molecules? And the molecules don't disappear when the body decomposes - they merely disassociate and probably form new associations. In this sense, there is no literal death, just a continual reassociation - though there is a metaphorical death of a metaphorical body. But I don't even know if you can call the molecular association a distinct "body," since it is in a state of continual flux and reaction with its environment and never from one minute to the next consists completely of the same exact set of molecules. I tend to think of "soul" as a metaphor for energy. And energy continues to exist in (and even make up the "substance" of) each and every individual molecule/atom whether they are associated or disassociated. Some might wonder how this explains consciousness. Though it is imperfect, I could use the analogy of baking soda and vinegar. Apart they are rather tame and "lifeless." But combine them, and you'll witness a lively (and one might say violent or even creative) chemical reaction. I think consciousness is a just another sort of reaction - a by-product of a certain association of molecules. Does it make us any more important than the rocks? Maybe not.... Maybe it just IS and we (however we define "we") just ARE. And maybe there is no such thing as un-ISness (unbeing, or "death"). Maybe there is only Be-ing, though we are not quite accustomed to recognizing all of it as such.
What hath Smith wrought?... Thanks for inspiring a bit of brain churning this morning. You're good at that.
Silly it's more than that!
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Then maybe I need more coffee this morning!
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I understand the soul is our memory. it is memories from past to present. Of course if you know about me at all. One never dies. It is our memories that keep living and one must eliminate them to be one of all things.. So it is and eternity of living and returning to get things right per se ha.
We form our bodies, our world with our very thoughts. So be careful what you think..
Just my view
namaste'
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Thanks, Shyloh!
Very interesting....
I wonder if we will all one day "get things right." And what then? Would we ever need bodies? Or will we just be one big bodiless collection of consciousness?
I wonder, too, if we're indeed working on getting things right, whether there was ever a time when things weren't wrong. And if so, how did things go wrong in the first place?
Lots of questions this morning... lol.
Namaste....
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I have often been told by my teacher. We need to learn all we can now about the Spirit. When we die our bodies return to dust to which WE formed IT. But we will return where we left off. Yes I believe Jesus was the perfect example of being ONE with the Father. He showed us how to do it. It is the Spirit that is our true nature. If one can realize we are alone. The Father and I are one. When we encounter another person. (ghost of the past) we actually are seeing us. And talking to us.There is no one else. Eerie isn't it haha. But that is my understanding. But then again we are never alone. Sit in a room alone and open the window. See who comes to visit. I wrote a piece years ago about the many mansions. Those mansions are the corridors of our minds and we have many to clean up. That is why it is said nothing is OUT there. It is all with in. So many things come to mind. But I cannot place them all here haha. You would ban me for sure. Love the topic. Gives me lots to think about again today.
PS. Nothing is truly right or wrong. Life just is. We judge and put our own perceptions to things.
namaste'
curious to read what other are saying. Have a great day.
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I find your comment fascinating, especially this:
"When we encounter another person (ghost of the past) we actually are seeing us. And talking to us. There is no one else." A new possibility for me to consider....
And then you said, "Nothing is truly right or wrong. Life just is. We judge and put our own perceptions to things." Was Shakespeare was right when he said there is nothing good or bad "but thinking makes it so"?
Life just is... so it seems to me, though I sometimes lose sight of that.
Never fear - I shan't ban you!
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I have had that same thought, It is a subject that my mind wonders to often! I see our soul or spirit or what ever you may call it as energy. in constant motion,
It's kinda funny thinking of the after life as some call it, is it bliss or is it nothing or is it the same minus the weight of our flesh?
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Thank you so much, Angela!
I like the word energy. It's harder to argue with and easier to prove scientifically. But I don't close my mind to the possibility that soul and spirit exist. And certainly if they do exist and are even distinct/independent from matter, they would almost certainly have to be "energy," though perhaps a form of energy we have not yet been able to scientifically define, observe or quantify.
If all matter is essentially energy - and even all non-matter - perhaps everything is by definition in constant motion. It's hard for me to imagine anything not being in motion.
As far as the "after life"... a very good question.
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Oh... interesting blog..!! I have to chew on this a little while.. but I will be back..
very thought provoking...
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Thank you, Chris!
I've responded to your comment on yesterday's blog - Dead Souls (from In a Dada ga Vida) - as well. And I think they tie together in a fashion.
I look forward to your return.
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A philosophical conundrum. I just don't want to think about death today when the earth is coming to life. The way we go on ofter we die is through our works and through our children who carry our genes. I, however, am living and loving in NOW and want to cultivate my garden today. Get out and get some healthy dirt under your nails and oxygen in your lungs. It is a perfect day to LIVE and LOVE and be optimistic. I neither can wait for a possible reincarnation or an afterlife. All we have is NOW....
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To life then!!!! L'Chaim!
There is no past or future anyway - when yesterday and tomorrow were and are here, they were and are NOW. Nothing but now.... And spring is here!
So I'm getting off my computer and enjoying life and the great outdoors for a while - and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
Thanks, Elena! L'Chaim!
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my pleasure.
the rascal sage gurdjieff says humans are born without souls, in fact are asleep - and the purpose of life is to awaken enough to give birth to your soul.
the body is mere vehicle, it is not i. i am the 21 grams that leaves the body when it dies. i hope this 21 grams disperses into nothingness and becomes building blocks for others or other things. but whatever it becomes, smith will be dead and gone.
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Very interesting.... If the soul is memory, as a couple of friends have suggested, you may live on whether you want to or not. But do people really remember other people as they ARE, or merely as they appear to be be?
I don't know a lot of Gurdjieff besides these two (perhaps unrelated) quotations:
1. "One must do everything one can and then say 'God have Mercy!'"
2. (I couldn't remember the exact wording, so I had to look it up.) "If a sufficient number of people who wanted to stop war really did gather together, they would first of all begin by making war upon those who disagreed with them. And it is still more certain that they would make war on people who also want to stop wars but in another way."
You've kinda got me wanting to read more.
Thanks for the inspiration, Smith!
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That we have the intellect to ponder these questions makes us more important than rocks. Not necessarily better, and often worse. With knowledge comes responsibility. But humanity's dominion over the earth is another topic. Certainly, this life comes to an end. Is there a soul? I believe so. We are certainly much more than the sum of our parts. What is the soul? Someone said it was memories and I tend to agree. I think that another name for the soul is the mind. I don't know if that dies when the flesh dies. I hope that it does not, but I realize that it is rather egotistical to think that a personality is so important that it needs to continue for eternity. Many faiths do believe that all the souls in the world are endlessly leaving and returning to earth for all eternity. I think that it will always be a mystery. Maybe that is as it should be and we are meant to search endlessly for enlightenment.
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You said "That we have the intellect to ponder these questions makes us more important than rocks. Not necessarily better, and often worse." Point taken.... You are right. Often our thinking we're important leads us to disregard the importance of other... (I want to say) creatures (but what if the world was not created?). We are indeed more important (as I said Bush was important in my recent interview blog), though not necessarily better.
I very much appreciate your comments, Tara. You bring up a number of issues I find intriguing, including the possibility that soul and mind are synonymous. Hmmm....
But goodness... what if we are "meant to search endlessly for enlightenment"? I was kinda hoping to achieve in in this lifetime... lol... even if I have to be 90 or more years old.
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I think our consciousness is a kind of byproduct, a foam, a scum from the water of mental processes, something that's beached. Especially global consciousness. In our current environmental context, it's akin to some aborted thing, a beached whale.
We just watched the movie "Perfume" last night. I recommend this. Harmonies in this speculation & the theme of the movie, that essence can be distilled and made to live beyond death.
There is comfort in appreciating the spirit of rock, of more inert matter.
Did you know that when humans die, they are toxic? We are at the top of the food chain and thus have so many heavy metals and contaminants that we need to be sequestered from nature.
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Thanks, Lady! Another excellent comment....
I tend to agree that consciousness is a byproduct - never really imagined it as foam or scum, though I think that's a brilliant idea and quite possible. I've often wondered if consciousness is an anomaly (I like your beached whale analogy, too) - and in that case is it also like a cancer? After all, it can be argued that consciousness is the one thing in Nature that can be counterproductive (even unnatural). That possibility reminds me of something Dostoevsky said in Notes from the Underground: "To be too conscious is an illness." Although, on the other hand, one could argue that even illness is a part of nature (so I'm not sure how to define unnatural, or if any such thing exists).
I will definitely try to check out Perfume soon. You have me intrigued.
Of course if consciousness is not an anomaly, then I think it's possible that it's omnipresent, at least on an atomic (or energetic) level. So maybe the rocks, air, et cetera have a form of consciousness that we can't (or, with our human egos and sense of self-importance, don't want to) recognize. Maybe one day we will "see" their consciousness, just as it took us a long time to "see" that air consists of matter as we do.
As far as humans being toxic, I never really knew that - but it does make sense (also explains why we use coffins, etc.). One could argue that we are also toxic while we live.
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Smith thinks the universe is aware. I tend to agree. I used to be a total skeptic of all this kinda hokum, but now I have proof of supernatural activity (a ghost visitation), and so I'm wide open to all kinds of possibilities. In my engineering days, I would've scoffed at this, but spiritually, I was as inert as a rock back then. I have to say that now I believe in some kinda soul, at least after the ghost. But I don't know what the nature of soul *is*, and if it really is the same thing as consciousness. I think not. My consciousness is not always my true essence.
I think our consciousnesses exist in a shared space, and each consciousness can cast influence in reality's web. And I think the web is alive and transmits information.
Smith believes in a heisenbergian universe where the outcome of reality depends on one's state of mind, the questions asked coerce reality to collapse into particular answers. This applies a bit in my own life. I've always had great success manifesting what I want. I lost weight, I became sucessful to a satisfying extent in poetry, I became an artist and writer, I travel, I grabbed myself a trophy poet husband, I live the life I want to live. I always told myself that when I turned 30 I'd have the life I wanted, and I believe my visualizations helped manifest my reality.
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I very much like the idea of the universe being aware. It seems to me the ultimate hubris to think that WE humans see things so much better than any other being or thing can or does. We who invaded Iraq, created atomic bombs and concentration camps, kept slaves, burned people for thinking the world wasn't flat or the sun didn't orbit the earth.... We who invented Popes and pogroms and blitzkrieg raids and crusades and who voted for Bush and Nixon and Hitler and who continue to poison our earth and kill children and find reasons to despise each other....
Our solar system (never mind earth or neighborhood) is less than a speck of dust (maybe less than an electron) in the universe. And it's possible that our universe itself is only one of countless billions. Maybe there is a consciousness we can't even begin to fathom.
Yet, small as we are everything we do or think has an effect - is creative or destructive. I believe it was Picasso who said that "Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction." We eat (destroy) a carrot and yet the eating is an act of creating - a healthier human, good vision, feces.... And maybe we're also immensely big - with whole universes in each molecule of our bodies. Who can know?
I have to say I want to agree when you say "I think our consciousnesses exist in a shared space, and each consciousness can cast influence in reality's web. And I think the web is alive and transmits information." It certainly seems so. I don't necessarily think it's supernatural - it's just at times a nature we don't comprehend entirely.
I also like the idea of a universe "where the outcome of reality depends on one's state of mind." Sometimes it seems that my visualizations of chains before I was accused and went to prison were a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy - and then my visualizations of freedom while behind bars helped bring on a manifestation of actual freedom (even before my release) - and there are times out here when I must resist dwelling on perceived chains that may or may not manifest a chained reality.... I do believe to a large degree we can create our own destiny - though in other ways so many things seem beyond our control.
I'm just writing kinda stream of consciousness here, so I hope I'm expressing myself well.
Anyway, thank you for expanding and enriching and perpetuating this discussion. Lots of excellent comments, food for thought and talk - a whole smorgasboard to digest. I love that so many people are thinking and sharing about this. And everyone has had something important, interesting and thought-provoking to share.
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i see ghosts. we have one in this house. chris, when he lived with us, saw him too, and was afraid of him. he's never threatening though. sometimes i see him going into the front bedroom, sometimes i see him in the living room or kitchen. i've never seen him in the back bedroom before. perhaps this is because that room is an addition that might postdate the ghost's time period.
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Good blog question…
Good follow ups and sharing of your thoughts John…
But would you really characterize or categorize soul and consciousness as being the same?
I’m not sure I would necessarily.
If there is something called a soul and I think there is, I think it can have a consciousness…. Consciousness having to do with self –awareness, thought, emotion, etc.. there fore likely to be associated with a body and/or soul.
Soul as I said, I think exists, though not maybe in the form religions would like to characterize it in. Various religions categorize either a soul, or causal vehicle of some sort… That “holds” the “contents” so to speak of life experience… making it sound material… but I agree with Shyloh and a few of the others it is probably more akin to energy not matter. But then again … matter and energy are interchangeable.. so why couldn’t it be material after all if it wanted to be? Another devilish thought…
I guess I like to think of the soul something akin to love… No one would deny love exists… we see “it” daily in our lives…experience it . It manifests itself in our relationships with others but it is a “no-thing”…. intangible, untouchable, un-seeable, un-tastable.. yet.. it exists. Every one would agree to that. Because they have felt it… by its effects on us. I guess I would characterize soul in a similar way… It may be intangible, “unknowable” in a physical sense… yet it may exist ….does exist…
Anyway, I’m still open to thinking sbout it all… and I think I have a soul… because I’ve been around people who seem to not have one… and I can feel the difference. If that makes any sense.
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Some might see soul and consciousness as the same - but at this point in my life I don't think they are. I don't think the fact that we are conscious is debatable. Perhaps there are "layers" of consciousness - but the fact that we are having these thoughts and discussions proves, I believe, that consciousness does exist. What I wonder, though, is whether any such thing as "soul" exists. Our thoughts SEEM to have nothing to do with the body - so people have traditionally considered them as symptomatic (or even part) of "soul" or "mind" - which are seen as distinct from matter. I guess what I'm getting at is that "soul" and "mind" might have no independent existence, but be mere symptoms of a certain association of matter. That they exist on their own (or at all) may be an illusion we've created over the centuries to explain why we have thoughts, feelings, et cetera. But what if thought is just a physical, electrochemical reaction made possible by certain associations of atoms/molecules/chemicals? Kinda like the illusion that wind is "empty" or not made of matter. In the Old Testament the wind and breath were called ruach, which means "spirit" - perhaps the ancient Hebrews could not see or conceive of the oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen and other elements that make up the air.... And the Greeks made a similar assumption. In the New Testament, a single word, pneuma, is used for wind, breath and spirit (even the Spirit of God). It was thought that wind was supernatural, when it is actually (we now know) totally natural... a nature (if I may paraphrase my John Cage poem) to which our ears (and eyes) were unaccustomed. If we were wrong about wind/breath - thinking it was Spirit - perhaps we are now equally wrong about consciousness AND soul when we think of them as something as something supermaterial, outside of (or higher than, or more eternal than) matter. Just thinking aloud here....
Anyway, thanks Chris! You've got my old brain churning again....
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Well the references to wind or air, are both in the Greek and Hebrew references to the breath which was considered a representation of the soul as it left the body at death... thus "drawing your last breath" etc...
Also in Tibetan mysticism... the last breath is the one the soul departs the body with... So further thoughts in that direction...
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Cool... and you're right.
Thanks... I should dig out my Tibetan and Sanskrit books and see what else I can find.
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Ok, so I am an atheist and the concept of a "soul" might seem useless yet I see my "soul" as that undefinable "thing" that makes me so very definable and separate from the rest of the "souls". I hope my soul is the memory and if I am lucky the lasting change I effect upon the future. In the end I think we mostly wish to claim a "soul" as our permanent place here in the world yet we rarely stop long enough to wonder why is it even important that I do so? All I know is I am here now and I have the chances and opportunities that NOW offers. What I choose to do with those can, perhaps, effect how my "soul" is defined. We all effect the 'big picture', even in tiny ways....Oh who the hell really know, right? In the meantime I work hard at being a "good" person and that fills my soul. I hope. ~~
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"In the end I think we mostly wish to claim a "soul" as our permanent place here in the world yet we rarely stop long enough to wonder why is it even important that I do so?" Isn't that the truth?!
Although I resist (and even tend to dismiss) the traditional religious concept of "soul" as an eternal thing distinct from matter, I embrace the word in the metaphorical sense of a quality - something like "she's got soul!" That's the same way I like to use spirit - kinda like the French esprit. And I think your soul concept fits into that nicely. I can live with the "memory" definition, because memory has been proven to have a bit of a biochemical-electrical basis (and therefore is matter-based, though we still don't totally understand it).
And NOW is all we really ever have, as you and Elena have suggested. Being "good" and doing what we should (which differs from person to person) might just be enough - maybe not just "enough," but actually more than enough, the coolest thing we can do.
Anyway... these are just my morning pre-coffee ramblings. What the hell do I know?
I very much appreciate your remarks/insights, Maria!
And what a cool track... I'm embarrassed to admit I was unfamiliar with the band. But now I'm inspired to check out more of their work.
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You never heard Super Bon Bon???
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSd5hZuOpIM
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That is so coooool....
I'm a fan now!
Thanks!
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Okay, time to play Devil's Advocate here, pun intended. Many believe religion to have initially developed as a means for the thinking few to manipulate and control the more physically strong masses. Religious texts, and even beliefs prior to written religions came about as responses to basic human fears. They commonly used superstitions and threats of vengeful gods in order to maintain the varying morals and laws of each progressive culture. Some were necessary to promote social harmony (Thou shalt not covet...) Some have been proven to have modern scientific merit (Jews avoiding pork, thereby avoiding trichinosis in the desert, Hindus avoiding beef while living in an environment which couldn't support ranching cattle for that many citizens...) How many times have the indisputable do's and don'ts sent down from God been amended? (Can we say VaticanII?) Remember Catholic priests used to be allowed to marry and have families waaaay back when, until the church decided it cost too much money...
Just as prisons utilize rewards and punishments to compel inmates to abide by the rules designed to ensure optimal social conformity (time off for good behavior, solitary confinement...), the concept of an immortal soul emerged as the ultimate reward/punishment. Superstitious serfs no longer had to worry about their reputations in the 20 or so years of their pitiful life expectancy, but to the lengths of eternity. Also, while they suffered through their daily toils only to see their loved ones die around them from malaria, plague, tetanus, or common maladies known as consumption, the concept of an everlasting soul provided consolation for their loss, and a reason why they shouldn't just end their own difficult suffering at their own hands.
Is it possible that our planet is a living organism, and we are merely the most complex part of it? Akin to the human central nervous system and its complex responsibility to the function of the human body, are we not, perhaps vital to the function of the earth? Are we self-aware only because it's a by-product of our requirement to think and adapt in order to best perform our duty for earth? Is it earth that God created, and are we simply the tools he created in order to support it, like we think of hemoglobin, oxygen, etc.? Is the complex combination of events that occurs within our bodies more or less important than the complex combination of event that happens within and upon our planet in order to maintain the "circle of life" that is our world?
I'm not saying this is what I believe, I'm just saying they are ideas.
I watched a biography of Ayn Rand starring Helen Mirren last night. It was revealing. I recommend it.
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I didn't know about the Rand biography. That's something I'd love to see. And I think Helen Mirren is a perfect choice for that role. Will have to look for it....
As far as the rest of what you've written... it is eloquently stated and quite compelling. I've always been intrigued by the concept of our planet (and even our universe) being an organism. Have you read The Gaia Hypothesis by Dr. James Lovelock? When I worked as a reference clerk in the prison library, I was privileged to have as my "boss" a librarian from India. His "spirituality" owed much to Hinduism, and he'd also earned a doctorate in geology before coming to America. Anyway, he's the one who turned me on to that book and some others.
You've made excellent points as well about the "scriptural" laws, et cetera. Much brilliance in your comment....
Thank you very much for being my friend and adding to the discussion. You can be Devil's (or God's) advocate anytime you like.
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To all these questions I say... I don't know. To me that's the most honest answer a person can give. I'd like to believe in a soul and an afterlife that we return to. One of love and peace. To reconnect with our loved ones and all is well. But, I'm afraid it's just fantasy. A very human longing. I do see evidence we decompose and change shape. We live on in others memories as they saw us. We don't physically go away because there is no away. At least in the universe we know of. That's not really scary to me because non-consciousness seems like it would be peaceful insomuch as any suffering would cease. Maybe non-being is nirvana. The weight of emotion and physicality erased.
I just read about a woman who was brain dead for 17 hrs. rigamortus had even set in to some areas and then she woke up. She is now in fine health. It's considered medically impossible but it just happened. Now, that makes me question where did she go?. They didn't say if she had a near death experience. I've read a lot of Elizabeth Kubler Ross writings and she certainly believed in the passing of the soul. Of course Mother Theresa did as well. So, I go back to the fact I just don't know...
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I just conclude that the body and the mind are inseparable (read Aristotle) A mind cannot live without a body and a body doesn't live long without a mind. A whole lot of religion and philosophy just confuses us to death or until death us do part. I agree that energy cannot be destroyed and even if cremated our molecules go into the earth and the water and, as my dad once said, when you drink a glass of water you could be drinking a molecule of Plato. That struck me funny since he was a Christian minister. And my devout mother told me just before she died that she said death for her is the GREAT UNKNOWN. My aunt who now is 104 still thinks she will go up to be with Jesus but she still thinks it will be a surprise, and she said everyone loves surprises, don't they? And without oxygen we die and very fast.
So my advice to all of you don't stop thinking, keep breathing, keep loving yourself and keep living. Nobody knows what happens when we die. Nobody. I like Einstein's religious beliefs and read a lot of psychology and mythology.
There is a higher self and there is a super ego and a subconscious. There are dreams and reality. We live in a society of anxiety and alienation from the human world about us, and many suffer an inner conviction of being estranged in the natural world as well. What is keeping us from true happiness and even health is the negativity we feel about ourselves and others. I this can be released we can be the all loving beings that each of us are. Just love and you will have everything. That is what I am aiming for and working to find peace, happiness and contentment. Where is my soul? I don't even know what a soul is.
It is just another word for being. You cannot intellectualize our existence. I am because I feel, not just because I think. And everything is in motion and changes every second in time. And I am fascinated with time. But that is a whole subject for another blog or essay.
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Thanks, Elena! I tend to agree that the mind (consciousness?) and body are inseparable. Yet is there some sort of invisible connection (radio waves are the closest analogy I can come up with - though I'me referring to something we cannot yet detect) that unites our consciousnesses? A sort of akashic record?... Maybe we'll one day be able to scientifically demonstrate that there is. Or maybe there isn't. The more I learn, the less I know... lol.
I've heard, too, that (since there are a finite number of particles on this earth) it is quite possible that each of us has particles of Caesars, serfs, and simians within and all about us....
And I can definitely embrace the idea of soul as "another word for being." I already define "god" in a similar sense.
Ultimately, we go back to what you, Pugzz and others have suggested: we simply do not know. But not knowing isn't so bad - it gives a lot of extremely cool and interesting territory to explore.
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Thanks, Pugzz! We've had a hell of a lot of fantastic answers on this blog - even when they've seemed to contradict each other. So much wisdom... so much insight... and yet in a way, you have given the best answer. Do any of us really know? CAN any of us really know? We can make some excellent educated guesses, but... there is always a chance that despite our best efforts and intentions we are actually blowing smoke up our own asses. This song by Audioslave is playing in my head and seems appropriate:
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a friend of mine wrote a blog today about her brother's death and how it came crashing down on her today, even though it happened 10 years ago. i wrote her a message, not a comment, and told her i knew what she was going through, having lost my mom, dad and only sibling. i told her to go with it, ride it out, grief over losing people we were close to, in as pretty much a permanent way as one can lose someone, has to be let out and it can come upon us at any moment. i suggested that she might want to perhaps do something that reminds her of her brother, as a way of feeling him nearby her.
are soul and spirit separate from each other, or the same thing? when i go into the kitchen and cook arabic food, i feel my mom and my grandmother with me. i can hear my mom's voice saying "she cuts up tamatas (mom was from the south, she said tamatas, not tomatoes) just like mama did. hunh. is her spirit with me at times like that? is it a conscious thing that happens to me or does my subconscious take over and make it happen.
a few years ago i decided that i believe in reincarnation. it's had an appeal to me ever since i first heard about it. i love the idea that when we die, we aren't just gone. i feel that inside of me, inside of all of us, are bits and pieces of others who have gone before us, but i can't really explain why i feel that, i don't think. i'll read something or see something about a certain era and feel as if i have been there before. something i've never done before can happen, like i can pick up a pencil and write out a poem and feel as if perhaps i've written those same words before at some point, or something similar to it.
i can be blinded by science and math, but things like music and painting and all the other arts seem to come naturally to me, even though they all have a basis in something scientific or mathematical. sort of like this time around, the bits of me that should be able to grasp algebra are missing, like those particular molecules didn't quite make it into my brain this time around, and yet i can go into the kitchen and make up my own cake recipe, which is pretty much all chemistry and not think anything of it. at times like that, i don't feel my mom or grandmother with me, it's something from inside of me.
chris spoke of love. do we make a conscious decision on who we love? sometimes i think that it's all yet again some sort of chemical reaction. we love who we love because there's something about that person that we connect with, a vibe, if you will. i can usually tell within a few minutes of talking with someone if i'm going to get along with them or not, sometimes it takes a little longer than that, but on the whole, my heart (not gut, i'm a heart person by nature) reaction to a person is usually correct.
over my 3000... second post to follow.
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Thank you, mb! Eloquently expressed....
I've read your comment several times, and everytime I try to respond my words seem to get in the way of what I mean to say. You said, "i feel that inside of me, inside of all of us, are bits and pieces of others who have gone before us." Me too....
And for some reason this poem by William Wordsworth keeps coming to mind. So perhaps I should post it.
The Child is father of the Man;
And I could wish my days to be
Bound each to each by natural piety.
I. There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight,
To me did seem
Appareled in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream
It is not now as it hath been of yore-
Turn whereso'er I may,
By night or day,
The things which I have seen I now can see no more.
II. The Rainbow comes and goes,
And lovely is the Rose,
The Moon doth with delight
Look round her when the heavens are bare,
Waters on a starry night
Are beautiful and fair;
The sunshine is a glorious birth;
But yet I know, where'er I go,
That there hath past away a glory from the earth.
III. Now, while the birds thus sing a joyous song,
And while the young lambs bound
As to the tabor's sound,
To me alone there came a thought of grief:
A timely utterance gave that thought relief,
And I again am strong:
The cataracts blow their trumpets from the steep;
No more shall grief of mine the season wrong;
I hear the Echoes through the mountain throng,
The Winds come to me from the fields of sleep,
And all the earth is gay;
Land and sea
Give themselves up to jollity,
And with the heart of May
Doth every Beast keep holiday-
Thou Child of Joy,
Shout round me, let me hear thy shouts, thou happy Shepherd-boy!
IV. Ye blessed Creatures, I have heard the call
Ye to each other make;I see
The heavens laugh with you in your jubilee;
My heart is at your festival,
My head hath its coronal,
The fullness of your bliss, I feel-I feel it all.
Oh, evil day! if I were sullen
While Earth herself is adorning,
This sweet May morning,
And the Children are culling
On every side,
In a thousand valleys far and wide,
Fresh flowers; while the sun shines warm,
And the Babe leaps up on his Mother's arm-
I hear, I hear, with joy I hear!
-But there's a Tree, of many, one,
A single Field which I have looked upon,
Both of them speak of something that is gone:
The Pansy at my feet
Doth the same tale repeat:
Whither is fled the visionary gleam?
Where is it now, the glory and the dream?
V. Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy
But he
Beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature's Priest,
And by the vision splendid
Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.
VI. Earth fills her lap with pleasures of her own;
Yearnings she hath in her own natural kind,
And, even with something of a Mother's mind,
And no unworthy aim,
The homely Nurse doth all she can
To make her foster child, her Inmate Man,
Forget the glories he hath known,
And that imperial palace whence he came.
VII. Behold the Child among his newborn blisses,
A six-years' Darling of a pygmy size!
See, where 'mid work of his own hand he lies,
Fretted be sallies of his mother's kisses,
With light upon him from his father's eyes!
See, at his feet, some little plan or chart,
Some fragment from his dream of human life,
Shaped by himself with newly-learned art;
A wedding or a festival,
A mourning or a funeral;
And this hath now his heart,
And unto this he frames his song;
The will he fit his tongue
To dialogues of business, love, or strife;
But it will not be long
Ere this be thrown aside,
And with new joy and pride
The little Actor cons another part;
Filling from time to time his "humorous stage"
With all the Persons, down to palsied Age,
That Life brings with her in her equipage;
As if his whole vocation
Were endless imitation.
VIII. Thou, whose exterior semblance doth belie
Thy Soul's immensity;
Thou best Philosopher, who yet dost keep
Thy heritage, thou Eye among the blind,
That, deaf and silent, read'st the eternal deep,
Haunted forever by the eternal mind-
Mighty Prophet! Seer Blest!
On whom those truths do rest,
Which we are toiling all our lives to find,
In darkness lost, the darkness of the grave;
Thou, over whom thy Immortality
Broods like the Day, a Master o'er a Slave,
A Presence which is not to be put by;
Thou little Child, yet glorious in the might
Of heaven-born freedom on thy being's height,
Why with such earnest pains dost thou provoke
The years to bring the inevitable yoke,
Thus blindly with thy blessedness at strife?
Full soon thy Soul shall have her earthly freight,
And custom lie upon thee with a weight,
Heavy as frost, and deep almost as life!
IX: O joy! that in our embers
Is something that doth live,
That nature yet remembers
What was so fugitive!
The thought of our past years in me doth breed
Perpetual benediction: not indeed
For that which is most worthy to be blest;
Delight and liberty, the simple creed
Of Childhood, whether busy or at rest,
With new-fledged hope still fluttering in his breast-
Not for these I raise
The song of thanks and praise;
But for those obstinate questionings
Of sense and outward things,
Fallings from us, vanishings;
Blank misgivings of a Creature
Moving about in worlds not realized,
High instincts before which our mortal Nature
Did tremble like a guilty Thing surprised;
But for those first affections,
Those shadowy recollections,
Which, be they what they may,
Are yet the fountain light of all our day,
Are yet a master light of all our seeing;
Uphold us, cherish, and have power to make
Our noisy years seem moments in the being
Of the eternal Silence: truth that wake,
To perish never;
Which neither listlessness, nor mad endeavor,
Nor Man nor Boy,
Nor all that is at enmity with joy,
Can utterly abolish or destroy!
Hence in a season of calm weather
Though inland far we be,
Our Souls have sight of that immortal sea
Which brought us hither,
Can in a moment travel thither,
And see the Children sport upon the shore,
And hear the mighty waters rolling evermore.
X. Then sing, ye Birds, sing, sing a joyous song!
And let the young Lambs bound
As to the tabor's sound!
We in thought will join your throng,
Ye that pipe and ye that play,
Ye that through your hearts today
Feel the gladness of the May!
What though the radiance which was once so bright
Be now forever taken from my sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,
In years that bring the philosophic mind.
XI. And O, ye Fountains, Meadows, Hills, and Groves,
Forebode not any severing of our loves!
Yet in my heart of hearts I feel your might;
I only have relinquished one delight
To live beneath your more habitual sway.
I love the Brooks which down their channels fret,
Even more than when I tripped lightly as they;
The innocent brightness of a newborn Day
Is lovely yet;
The clouds that gather round the setting sun
Do take a sober coloring from an eye
That hath kept watch o'er man's mortality;
Another race hath been, and other palms are won.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.
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the poem is perfect. thank you.
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I'm glad.
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I can relate to this very much I also believe in reincarnation
Oh & I say tamatas too
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mt. momma, you are one hella groovy chicky
after i read my friends blog yesterday, i started feeling very sad, when i had been pretty upbeat all day. it took me awhile to pinpoint where the sad was coming from, becuase it wasn't all of the sudden, so i started writing and realized i writing a reply to this blog, using my reaction to the other blog.
i was maybe 33 when i finally realized mom said tamatas instead instead of tomatoes.
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Thank you, Angela and mb!
I often say maters and taters, too... and patatas and tamatas.
Don't think I knew for a long time that there were o's at the end of potato and tomato... lol.
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i'm writing out loud here, aren't i? i wonder if when i read it back it will make any sense, or even follow the topic at hand. i can tell you that sine i do believe in reincarnation, i've lost the fear of dying, because i know that at some point i'll be back again, maybe as a cat.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HiDOMuhpqUo
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I've always loved that song... though I've never seen/heard this version (I only know it from the album Déjà Vu).
Your cat reference reminds me of one of my favorite films, Vanilla Sky.
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i was just going to post the lyrics, but then thought a video would be better. the song, the way it's sung, make the words considerably more powerful.
"i'll see you in another lifetime, when we are both cats."
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This is something I ponder from time to time...very interesting. There are so many different ideas about the soul, and our continued existence, or not.
I vacillate between believing there is and believing there isn't a soul.
Although I will tell you what happened to me when I was first in nurses training. One of my patients was an older lady who was on her deathbed. I was with her at the time of death. I don't know if this was my imagination or not, but I saw a long thin what appeared to be a gold colored thread pass from the top of her head and go toward the window and disappear. It seemed real, and I was not in a highly emotional state, nor am I prone to an overly active imagination. So, I have always assumed that it was real. I know that sounds strange, but at the time I thought that must have been her soul.
I believe the soul is what animates us and what makes our eyes look so alive. Have you ever looked into a dead person's eyes? There is nothing there, total and utter emptiness.
Also, I've always wondered about aging. When we are babies, we start growing and changing, all the way up to adulthood and old age. We don't look the same, yet we recognize ourselves as being who we are. Our conscience is only known to ourselves. It is unique to only us, no one else can know what it is to be YOU.
That being said, there is still no positive proof that a soul exists. So, that makes me wonder if there is no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, does that mean that the idea of a soul even existing a moot point?
I want to believe that there is a soul because I can't imagine that we live our lives out just to go away and that is finality. Why do we have a conscience and an awareness if that is the case? I like to think that once we leave the physical plane that we do go to another plane, or a dimension where we become one with everyone else. A place where we are all one part of each other. I like to think that in treating your neighbor kindly, you are also treating yourself kindly because we are all part of a whole.
There are so many possibilities, aren't there? I think people who think there is only one possibility and that they KNOW what that is, may be luckier than those who question, because most likely we will never know the truth. Although it is interesting to speculate...
Sorry if this is disjointed. I'm exhausted and supposed to be in bed right now..have work tomorrow at 5:30, but I started reading everyone's interesting comments and I couldn't resist putting my two cents in, for what it's worth.
Peace & Love to you all!!
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Thank you, Susan! I think your response is certainly less disjointed than mine.
You said, "I think people who think there is only one possibility and that they KNOW what that is, may be luckier than those who question, because most likely we will never know the truth." I think this is what Dostoevsky was saying when he asserted that "To be too conscious is an illness." I really do like to think, however, that one day we will know. Might take thousands of years (if we're lucky enough to be around that long).... But then I think of how knowledge we thought was out of the realm of possibility 200, 100 or even 50 years ago is now commonplace.
I always find your comments very interesting. The only answer I have as to why we have a conscience is that there was likely an evolutionary purpose for it, perhaps to preserve the species or planet. I don't know - just speculating.
I especially like this that you said: "I like to think that in treating your neighbor kindly, you are also treating yourself kindly because we are all part of a whole." Yes!! I think Jesus was aware of this when he referred to us as a "body" and advised us to love one another and "do unto others...." Reminds me of a song I wrote in prison called "One" - I'll have to see if I can find it.
You've got my brain waking up finally this morning... lol. Seems like yours was already quite awake, despite your "exhaustion".... I appreciate your comments!
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Reading the Wordsworth poem took two cups of coffee, an hour of thinking and the realization of why Miriam gave up writing her dissertation for her Ph.D. on Wordsworth and got pregnant with Katy instead. I believe this is what the old poet meant. Go out and enjoy life while the grass is green and fragrant and the flowers are fresh, the sun is shining and all the feelings of belonging in nature are here on this May morning. I believe everything has a "soul" and I think it is like you said a spirit. Even my kitties have a sort of soul. Last night Conrad and Karma were sharing the same chair and Karma was licking Conrad. I wish I could have a video of this. Do cats love each other? What is love anyway? Definition please... And just another observation: Wordsworth lived in the world of the past without
blasting rock music, without cars and airplanes and motorcycles deafening our ears, without movies and videos and computers wasting our time and also without so much urban living on streets and in high rises and violence and divorce and hatred etc. Also can we explain a God who created this earth to kill people with earthquakes, tornados, cyclones and nuclear warfare? I think of this if we had a creator. Why so much horror on this earth? Yes, all we have is NOW. I believe time is so relative to how we look at life. Where are we on our time line? Is time circular and do we live and die and become reborn like the sun each morning?
The sun does determine time your know.
It creates daylight separate from night.
I have been thinking like Wordsworth this morning. O what is so rare as a day in June, then if ever come perfect days. So Bert Lathram just called and he is coming to cut down a half dead tree between my house and the one next door. Also my beautiful tri-color beech has died and I am trying to find out the answer to this. It was the most beautiful tree in the whole neighborhood but it now has nothing but last fall's brown leaves hanging and no new buds. So this also is life and death and I wonder about seeds that renew life so it keeps going. I hope to get another tree if they have to cut down the beech. This blog is becoming a whole life-death soul and spirit philosophy. But I am going to quit writing and go outside. You should do the same.
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I shall go outside....
But first,
I have promises to keep
and miles to write before I sleep
and miles to write before I sleep
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I had some further thoughts too along the lines of reincarnation as well.. Thought of them overnight so wanted to share while they were still on my mind.
And I guess that is why I persist in believing that there is a soul or something like it.... not sure what THAt is but believe in it anyway. And that is due to the research Ian Stevenson did with past life memories.
Here is the wikipedia link describing giving his bio and info on his work : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson
He did research thru the University of Virginia.
Stevensons work is really interesting and though most of his reasearch is based on anecdotal information it still points in an interesting direction. I think also the info regarding Lamas in Tibet and the way they are "found" once they reincarnate also fascinating.
So I think all told I hate to throw out the idea of a soul even if I'm not neceasarily sure WHAT it is.
Anyway, those were my further thoughts on it.
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Thanks, Chris!
Interesting... I will have to explore Ian's work further. And I've always found the "finding" of the lamas fascinating as well.
I guess that even while I'm almost arguing against the concept of "soul," I too hate to totally throw it out. My damned indecision again?... lol Perhaps just a desire to keep all possibilities open as long as they are indeed possibilities.... I don't think anything is ever totally black or white - yet I'm trying to black out the soul idea.
That said, should I then refuse to black out ideas like the earth being flat and the sun going round the earth?
So maybe some things are black and white. Hmm....
So I guess it's back to the thinking board for me....
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I think the whole universe is a living entity (God, if you will) and everything is part of it. It cannot be destroyed and will go on forever. Like a giant living puzzle, and until it is all put together will you have the ability to see what it is. Just a thought.
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Thank you, Susan! And you may be right.
If "God" exists and anything is outside of God, then God must be finite. And if God is not infinite, it seems he (or she) is less than God. So either all is divine or nothing is. And either way, I don't see why there must be a beginning or an end. Both a beginning and an end seem illogical to me.
Rockin'!
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no "big bang" theory for you then?
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Yes... but I think there had to be a collapse before the "bang." So the bang isn't a beginning - it's more like an inhalation. The collapse was like an exhalation. Eventually our universe will contract and collapse again - and then there will be another big bang.
At least that's my theory. No beginning or end, just an eternal "respiration" of sorts....
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i like that.
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Yes! That gets my vote!
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How did I miss this? Am I subscribed?
Wow. Quite the existential questions being tossed about here, it's beautiful to see so many wonderful minds and hearts pondering together.
I think you have tapped into some 'collective unconscience' right here!
Answers? As soon as I think I've found an answer, it only provokes more questions? But I'll never stop searching and asking?
Part of the wonder that is being human?
The Human Condition?
(You've got some smart folks on here...stealing all your friends J!Nah, don't have to...you share so well with us all!)
Hugs,
S.
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Thanks, Suzette! I think this is one of those cases when the comment section is a better read than the blog itself... lol. I do have some smart, groovy friends - and you're one of them. I'm sure they won't mind you stealing them.
I'm grateful for everyone's participation. Each of you has made this subject more enriching (and more interesting) to me.
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I also think of ESP and I have had this with you JC. I also have had a few encounters with spirits, (ghosts?) but that is for another blog.
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Gest in case you is readin' comments try the latest on the Hillbilly preecher. I's findin' he tickles ma relijus funny bone. What is the Hill Bill ee anyway but the latest political joke? Let's all do the merengue and dance salsa for P.R. and kiddo that don mean political right. Iffen I caint laf a bit I ees dead. And can spik P.R. espaneesh!!
Jest leave out the "s" and you are all
"pecadores" and that ain't fishermen on the Sea of GAlilee. LMAO I love Hay Seuss and his soul blog.
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Much obliged, ma'am!
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Reading interesting posts help me find more solutions to different queries.Definitely got that here. Thanks.
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The truth is out there.
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